cross-posted from: https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/64896415
For additional context, hereās Brianās previous blog post about the first preview release of Xfwl4, where he describes his history with Xfce and the sponsorship:
https://www.spurint.org/journal/2026/06/xfwl4s-first-preview-release
Here is the entire blog post regarding the LLM usage for mobile users, as it doesnāt format correctly on mobile:
LLMs and Xfwl4
I was planning to write a little about my usage of LLMs while building xfwl4 as a small section of a larger blog post, but I decided Iād rather get it out of the way on its own.
While LLM usage can be polarizing in the context of open source, I donāt really see it that way. Itās a tool, like any other. It has good parts and bad parts. On the bad parts, there are three things that stick out for me: Training Data and Copyright
Among other sources, LLMs were trained on publicly-available data, without the permission of any of the rightsholders of that data. That especially smarts since I have a lot of open source code out there, much of it licensed under the GPL. Is training an LLM on my code copyright infringement? If someone gets output from an LLM that looks substantially similar to my code, and they donāt know and donāt follow my license terms, is that copyright infringement?
And if it goes the other way, if output I get from an LLM looks very much like someone elseās code, did I infringe on their copyright?
Iām not sure! US law seems to suggest that training is fair game, as long as the entity doing the training has legal access to the data theyāre training on. As for the rest of it, Iām not sure thatās legally settled yet.
On top of that, it sometimes feels icky that companies like OpenAI and Anthropic are making money off of all this when all that data out there ā for which they mostly paid nothing ā makes it possible.
I donāt, however, think the best response for myself is to just pretend none of it exists. Itās a tool, and a useful one. Environmental and Social Impact
LLMs need a lot of space, electricity, and water. Communities where data centers are being built, along with the associated power plant upgrades, are often getting stuck with some of the bill for those improvements, which is disgusting.
The secret deals between datacenter companies and utility companies, often with municipalities complicit, are often leaving regular ratepayers out to dry. Thatās a local problem, and I hope those local people vote in representatives who will take better care of them. Supply Chain
I donāt need to remind anyone how expensive GPUs and RAM are right now. I was planning to upgrade the mainboard in my laptop this year, which would require new RAM (my current board has DDR4 in it), but the cost of 64GiB of LPCAMM2 DDR5 makes my eyes water.
The consumer RAM market has been hollowed out; several companies have either stopped making consumer-grade RAM entirely, or have severely restricted supply in order to make more money selling to datacenters and AI labs. Thatās capitalism at work for you, at the expense of regular folks who need to buy computing hardware for personal use.
But here I am, with a Claude Max 5x subscription for the past year and a half. Iām not comfortable with it, but the utility is just too great for me to take a principled stance here. I like it, and I want it, so Iām using it. Maybe thatās morally questionable, or worse. But, as I said: here I am. xfwl4 and LLMs
So yes, I use Claude quite a bit while developing xfwl4. I donāt vibe-code, ever, and I probably use the LLM to generate less code than most people do. After all, building things with code is my hobby and passion (and Iām lucky I got to do it professionally for a quarter century), and driving an LLM is kinda boring. Research and Planning
Most of my time with Claude Code is research and planning. One great match for LLM use here is helping me understand the finer details of xfwm4, since xfwl4 needs to duplicate all of its behavior. One common prompt of mine:
look at the xfwm4 source in detail and determine everything there is to know about $FEATURE. write up a plan for how to implement it in xfwl4 to notes/$FEATURE.md.
I go do something else for a while, and when itās done, I read the doc, and then spend a while asking Claude questions about it, and telling it the things I donāt like and what Iād like to be done differently, and it updates the doc. Implementation
Most of the time Iāll start working from the notes doc myself, writing the implementation by hand. My guidelines for plan-writing to Claude are to do things in phases, and so Iāll complete a phase at a time, and then ask Claude to validate what Iāve done. Often, while Iām working, Iāll decide to deviate from the plan, and Iāll have to tell Claude to do the validation based on the outcome I want, not based on adherence to the plan.
Once itās done, Iāll use /code-review and let Claude spawn sub-agents to do a full review of the new code. This usually finds some problems, even problems that the āmainā Claude instance didnāt find during its validation. I usually keep running /code-review again and again after finding and fixing issues, until there arenāt any left. I actually havenāt been doing /code-review for very long, maybe 6-8 weeks, as I didnāt know about it. I wish Iād done it from the start, as itās very useful.
Sometimes I will have Claude write some code for me. Usually itās when thereās a lot of boilerplate, or if thereās work that feels repetitive and tedious. Claude is generally a great fit for that, and I can both manually review the output and have a subagent do an independent review. Iāll usually keep CC in manual mode and approve every edit after reading it, but for some more mechanical changes, Iāll let it sit on auto for a while, and review when itās done.
Occasionally Iāll have it write more substantial code for me, usually for bug fixes, and occasionally for small features. I find it does a pretty decent job here, but I keep it on manual mode and often ask it to write the code in a different way, or take a different approach. Bug Fixing
Whenever thereās a bug, Iāll start looking into the code myself (I want to keep my debugging skills from atrophying), but in parallel Iāll also ask Claude to look into it, either by describing the problem, or pointing it to a Gitlab issue, if there is one.
Iāll admit that itās rare for me to find the issue faster than Claude does, and there were some issues where I was completely lost, and Claude figured out something in 10 minutes that probably would have taken me days. Tests
xfwl4 doesnāt have many unit tests, but Iād like to improve that at some point. Of the unit tests that do exist, they were al written by Claude. Iāve always found testing to be tedious, and never did a very good job of it. Claudeās tests are generally much more comprehensive than tests Iād write myself.
Iāve heard stories of people saying that Claude will change or delete failing tests instead of actually fixing the problem that makes the test fail, but that hasnāt (yet) happened to me.
xfwl4 also has a test-clients sub-crate that has a bunch of Wayland and X11 client apps for manual testing of various compositor features. I wrote the first Wayland test, using smithay-client-toolkit, but for the rest of them, I told Claude to write them for me, using my first test as a template. My LLM Strategy
I donāt really have one. I just run the best model available for everything (Opus 5, at the time of this writing1). I donāt write skills or other bits of automation. I expect some of that is indeed valuable, but Iām just not interested in it, so I donāt do it.
My usage isnāt high enough to ever hit my 5-hour or weekly limits on the Max 5x plan, so I just donāt worry about it. I started out with the Pro plan, but very quickly started hitting limits in the first 1-2 hours of the 5-hour windows, so I eventually upgraded after trying out extra usage for a bit and deciding Iād be spending more going down that route.
As I said above, I donāt vibe-code. I care about code quality and about understanding what Iāve built. I care about being able to maintain it in the future, manually, without needing an LLM to do everything for me. And Thatās Itā¦
Thatās it, I guess. I donāt think I would have made anywhere near as much progress with xfwl4 without an LLM. Itās easily saved me months of time, not in writing code (for non-trivial things, I can usually write it just as fast or faster), but in tracking down problems and helping me figure out solutions, whether thatās in Claude reading and reasoning about my code to find something thatās wrong, or in adding tons of targeted debugging prints to gather the information we need, and then sifting through the log file for me to do analysis.
I know this blog post is a tiny drop in an ocean of people writing about their LLM use, but I expect some folks might be curious about the development process behind xfwl4, so I figured a sort of disclosure was in order.
Itās been a little over a month since the first preview release of xfwl4, and Iāve fixed many issues and added new features since then. Hopefully I should have a new preview release in the next week or so, but you can clone the git repository to check out the current state of things for yourself, whenever you want.
Well, thatās sad. Who knows what potential unattributed plagiarism landmines are part of it thenā¦
The title of this post is incredibly misleading and I can tell you didnāt read how itās actually being used. The dev mostly isnāt using the LLM for code generation. There wouldnāt be any āpotentially unattributed plagiarism landminesā to worry about.
Edit: The dev does use the code in some cases, see below.
This is a direct quote from the linked blog:
Occasionally Iāll have it write more substantial code for me, usually for bug fixes, and occasionally for small features. I find it does a pretty decent job here, but I keep it on manual mode and often ask it to write the code in a different way, or take a different approach.
He is generating code and using it directly. AFAIK, being on manual mode in Claude just means approving or rejecting the each step of generated code, but it is generated and the dev appears to be using that generated code, which is introducing the risk of unknowingly using and shipping non-open source copyrighted code that the LLM trained on.
Sadly, LxQt is pro slop too:

The same seems to be the case for KDE. It seems like GNOME also somewhat is (since they didnāt ban AI for GTK+ or mutter or gnome shell, as far as Iām aware). Itās quite frustrating to see.
Also update regarding the MATE desktop, I found in their Contributing text that they are following the Linux Kernelās lead on accepting LLM code, with only a requirement to tag it as being AI-assisted.
AI-assisted code receives no special treatment compared to human code. If disclosing AI assistance, use the Assisted-by format adopted by the Linux kernel guidelines. Do not use Co-Authored-By with AI tool accounts or vendor emails, as it pollutes the commit history.
So theyāre off the table as well :\
I also found that Labwc wayland compositor (which MATE uses for wayland support), has similar guidelines in its Contributing file, and the Budgie Desktop uses Claude directly in their github.
@ProdigalFrog @ell1e ādonāt use co-authored by <llm>, it pollutes the commit historyā is a really odd way of saying āwe know we shouldnāt be using this and that we will receive backlash for it so we donāt want it to be publically, permanently known in the commit historyā :neocat_sip:
Straight into the trash
all these experienced lead developers using a new technology to create new software
but youāre the wise one that really knows the truth
oh sorry youāre ml. i hope your delusions are kind to you, heroic commie warrior
Just baby level ad hominem
Remember, its ethical as long as you close your eyes during the act.
i wish all ai tools and data centres a very happy explode in a ball of fire
The issue isnāt Claude. Itās accountability. Iād rather know which human signed it.
I donāt disagree.
The genie is out of the bag with AI. I donāt think thereās any āgoing backā to a pre-AI world. It cannot get back into the tube.
Itās a bubble, for sure, but we arenāt going back to pre-dotcom, either.
In the meantime, though, itās an arms race. Especially when it comes to things like offensive and defensive cyber security. LLM is especially well-suited for throwing shit against the wall and seeing what sticks, and thatās a perfect use-case for offensive cybersec.
FOSS has its own set of issues to deal with with regards to LLM codeā¦even beyond the vibe-coding aspects of it, the ultimate problem of licensing and attribution is incredibly complicated.
That is more of a philosophical issue than anything else. Not to be dismissive if it, itās quite importantā¦I had a conversation recently with a major FOSS groupās sysadmins about their defenses from web scraping. They have outright blocked a major cloud proxy platformās ASN because of abuses frok their IP blocks.
(What follows is my interpretation of what he said, not his wording)
A lot of that probably isnāt even āoffenseā, but poorly coded tools run by the platforms customers performing excessive web-scrapingā¦but it exposes the bigger issue thatās more philosophical than anything, because from his perspective, this looks, smells, and has the same outcome, as a DDoS attack. And the only ways to really, truly mitigate such an attack is with CDNs and such, and usually with SSL Decryption on a cloud provider.
These types of methods are diametrically opposed to something like their mission, putting them into a position where they have to outright block a lot of legitimate use to stop a handful of bad actors who are probably more ignorant than maligned.
I kinda see AI as the same. Shaming it, in FOSS projects particularly, isnāt a matter of code qualityā¦itās a philosophical matter, and the problem-users are usually more ignorant than maligned.
The person commiting the code is the one responsible for it.
You also wouldnāt know if a lazy would have just copied some unchecked code from stack overflow and pasted it into their program.
At the end the person making the commit responsabilises for that commit.
The problem is both using LLM code in an open-source project due to the threat that poses to the project if they unknowingly introduce copyright infringement, as as well as the very real ethical concerns inherent to using corporate owned and hosted LLM models.
The problems in detail (spoiler, click to expand)
The Licensing Problem:
Unknowingly using potentially copyrighted code from an LLM in a FLOSS project opens it up to being sued for infringement, which most FLOSS devs canāt afford to fight, especially in the USās current extremely pro-corporate courts.
Itās putting a target on your back for down the road when it becomes profitable for patent trolls to use AI to try to scan for copyrighted code on public code bases. Big tech companies could do the same to squash an open source competitor.
The Ethical problem:
Simply using an AI thatās run on a corporate data centers encourages the construction of yet more data centers, with all of the environmental/climate negatives they bring, as well as local harms they induce on the people living near them, such as increased electricity rates.
Using corporate AI directly helps the financial situations of the big tech companies that host them (by boosting usage/user numbers, they are able to attract more investment capital), most of which are owned by right-wing CEOās who are more than willing to collaborate with and fund fascist governments to ensure that they are not regulated in search of both maximum profits. Some of these companies, such as Nvidia, Palantir and Oracle, genuinely appear to be seeking to use these tools for what would previously be considered crackpot conspiracy theory levels of public control and surveillance.
But if someone is absolutely determined to use them regardless, I would hope they either use a locally run LLM, or use a distributed model like AI Horde, as at the very least that does not encourage the construction of corporate data centers nor boost their financial prospects.
Nooooo. Xfce was my fav :(
Whatās the best alternative for lightweight DM that has a policy against AI?
LXQt and MATE are the most comparable alternatives. Neither have commented on AI contributions (either for or against), AFAIK.
We should ask them to take a position, so xfce users (and distros that ship with them) have a safe place to pivot-to
An update on the different DEās stance on AI:
- LXQt wonāt ban AI, and will allow code contributions.
- MATEās Contributing.md on github explicitly allows AI contributions that are marked as AI.
- Budgie has Claude submissions right in their github.
- KDEās team is divided somewhat, but ultimately accept AI code.
- Gnome allows AI code on most of their projects.
That leaves Cinnamon and Cosmic, both of which are currently unknown on their stance. If they turn out to both be pro-AI, that would mean most major DEās are pro-AI, leaving us with the Window Managers to investigate like i3, Qtile, etc.
Edit: I see Qtile has claude contributions already so⦠Eghā¦
Edit 2: Cosmic accepts LLM contributions.
Not looking good. At this point Iām guessing Cinnamon will as well.
Pulling your head out of your arse?
So what?
The reasons it's a problem (spoiler, click to expand)
The Licensing Problem:
Unknowingly using potentially copyrighted code from an LLM in a FLOSS project opens it up to being sued for infringement, which most FLOSS devs canāt afford to fight, especially in the USās current extremely pro-corporate courts.
Itās putting a target on your back for down the road when it becomes profitable for patent trolls to use AI to try to scan for copyrighted code on public code bases. Big tech companies could do the same to squash an open source competitor.
Both Haiku OS and BSD are not allowing AI code contributions for this very reason.
The Ethical problem:
Simply using an AI thatās run on a corporate data centers encourages the construction of yet more data centers, with all of the environmental/climate negatives they bring, as well as local harms they induce on the people living near them, such as increased electricity rates.
Using corporate AI directly helps the financial situations of the big tech companies that host them (by boosting usage/user numbers, they are able to attract more investment capital), most of which are owned by right-wing CEOās who are more than willing to collaborate with and fund fascist governments to ensure that they are not regulated in search of both maximum profits. Some of these companies, such as Nvidia, Palantir and Oracle, genuinely appear to be seeking to use these tools for what would previously be considered crackpot conspiracy theory levels of public control and surveillance.
But if someone is absolutely determined to use them regardless, I would hope they either use a locally run LLM, or use a distributed model like AI Horde, as at the very least that does not encourage the construction of corporate data centers nor boost their financial prospects.
Unknowingly using potentially copyrighted code from an LLM in a FLOSS project opens it up to being sued for infringement, which most FLOSS devs canāt afford to fight, especially in the USās current extremely pro-corporate courts.
Has anyone been sued for this reason yet? I havenāt heard of it happening and until it does itās basically a non issue.
Using corporate AI directly helps the financial situations of the big tech companiesā¦
Using the internet in any capacity directly helps the financi situations of the big tech companies
I havenāt heard of it happening and until it does itās basically a non issue.
Projects that operate on that assumption are essentially sticking their head in the sand and hoping for the best. LLM output is on particularly shaky ground regarding copyright and itās vulnerability to being sued for plagiarism, see here: https://slrpnk.net/comment/23533549
I think itās a particularly dangerous gamble for projects based in the US, where the court system is extremely pro-corporation, making it likely to be much harder for a small FLOSS project to defend itself successfully.
Using the internet in any capacity directly helps the financi situations of the big tech companies
If someone gets their internet in the US, it is likely supplying a mega corporation with a monthly revenue stream, as internet providers are an oligopoly here. In other countries, this is often not the case.
Internet access in the modern day is, for the most part, extremely difficult to avoid needing in order to function easily in society.
In comparison, Corporate LLMs are extremely easy to avoid, and all of society got along fine without it just a few short years ago.
Is it not worthwhile to lower your fossil fuel use where possible, despite many in the US needing a car due to terrible public transport? Is it not also worth lowering animal meat consumption where possible for both animal welfare concerns and environmental concerns? I think thereās equal merit in depriving as much capital (and thus power) from pro-fascist tech corporations as possible, even if it is not total.
āadmits toā makes it sounds like itās something horrible
Nope, youāre supposed to run your free project in a manner that we approve of only, please.
If somebody proposed to build you a house with slave labor free of charge, would you be happy about it?
Since the answer is quite obvious, we can clearly state that even if something is free and beneficial for you, there is a line which you shouldnāt cross.
That out of the way, we now have to figure out where to draw this line. It just so happens that for a lot of people using a technology that actively destroys our environment, makes every computiational device more expensive, literally makes itās users dumber, and is built with very ethically questionable methods lies beyond the line.
Oh, if thatās not enough, LLMs can kill you if you are psychologically unstable.
Likening LLMs to slave labour now, are we? You guys get nuttier by the day.
Unknowingly using potentially copyrighted code from an LLM in a FLOSS project opens it up to being sued for infringement, which most FLOSS devs canāt afford to fight, especially in the USās current extremely pro-corporate courts.
Itās putting a target on your back for down the road when it becomes profitable for patent trolls to use AI to try to scan for copyrighted code on public code bases. Big tech companies could do the same to squash an open source competitor.
It could also simply be seen as a bad look no matter any risks, potentially the taking of code snippets from other projects that may have a significant code length, without attributing them properly. I find it sad.
So what? As long as they do proper QA, using AI is fine.
I use Claude Code with the Fable model too. It is pretty good. It still does hallucinate once in a while. And it still does logical fallacies sometimes. But I mitigate that by using the natural neuronal network in my head to analyzing the generated code (and yes, I am the bottleneck).
Besides the potential risk of unknowable copyright infringement and the dangers that poses to FLOSS projects as I mentioned in another comment here:
Simply using an AI thatās run on a corporate data centers encourages the construction of yet more data centers, with all of the environmental/climate negatives they bring, as well as local harms they induce on the people living near them, such as increased electricity rates.
Using corporate AI directly helps the financial situations of the big tech companies that host them (by boosting usage/user numbers, they are able to attract more investment capital), most of which are owned by right-wing CEOās who are more than willing to collaborate with and fund fascist governments to ensure that they are not regulated in search of both maximum profits. Some of these companies, such as Nvidia, Palantir and Oracle, genuinely appear to be seeking to use these tools for what would previously be considered crackpot conspiracy theory levels of public control and surveillance.
But if someone is absolutely determined to use them regardless, I would hope they either use a locally run LLM, or use a distributed model like AI Horde, as at the very least that does not encourage the construction of corporate data centers nor boost their financial prospects.
This virtue signaling needs to stop. Yes, the implications for AI are extremely dangerous and foolhardly. Taking out the pitchforks on Brian, an extremely talented and well regarded engineer in the FOSS world, is completely missing the point. Itās akin to blaming drivers of gas vehicles for global warming. The impetus for change are on the systems that put these things in place, not a FOSS dev building a WM. The incentive structure of limitless growth at all costs in the IT sector and the unfettered power projection of capital are to blame here. Until youāre willing to do something to stand up to that, then weāre all just waving our dicks in the wind here. Posting is not praxis.
We get it, you correctly arrived at the conclusion AI is bad. Welcome to the club. Brian Tarricone is a professional and I have no reservations of the quality of this code. You might as well boycott the linux kernel because guess what, AI generated code is in there too.
You created an account a few minutes ago just to say individuals shouldnāt bear any responsibility whatsoever, and worse, that advocating for reducing the problem in a meaningful way is virtue signalling?
Your comment just so happened to grasp my attention. Thereās simply no need to resort to ad hominem.
Is the BP oil spill my fault because I drive a car to work?
Classic āit doesnāt affect meā (yet), so itās fine. Maybe youāll change your tune when you run out of drinkable water because data centers are pumping it on top of climate change.
How on Earth could you derive āI donāt give a shitā from āstand up to systems of oppression, donāt castigate individualsā? Do your eyes even work?
This type of name and shaming just doesnāt scale. You canāt recycle your way out of climate change. This type of thinking places the responsibility on the individual, who by very nature is powerless and whoās individual actions have essentially no effect on outcome.
These types of sentiments donāt scale well into change, but it certainly allows the person making the post to feel good and to let others know they think the right things.
Refusing to use the tools that profit the very thing we want to stop is part of standing up to it, how is that not obvious?









